Hes not the pastor of Watermark. They were not giving Him a standing ovation. A former member of Shekinah Church, who lost a lawsuit against Shinn in which she alleged he swindled her out of $4 million, has issued a dire warning for those who have been lured into the. If youre short on time, start at 27 minutes when the speakers starts explaining why people think Watermark is a cult. The Roys Report seeks to foster thoughtful and respectful dialogue. Even now, her parents (who worship there) refuse to talk to her or visit her children, simply because she was dutiful enough to report on the pedophile acts of a man who used to work at Prestonwood. Churches that utilize a confession like the Westminster, 1689, or the 39 articles seem comfortable requiring specificity in their doctrine for both members and pastors I think this is more transparent, and thus healthier, than having two statements. Ministries. This church sounds exhausting and prideful. Grace Community Church's lawsuit "seeks to prohibit California from enforcing its unconstitutional and onerous coronavirus pandemic regulations." Link copied Aug. 14, 2020, 2:58 PM UTC Im only surprised it took 15 years. However, an expert on church property law says the churches . Regardless Lords will be done Prov 16:9 The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps. Todd Wagner is a guy that would jump in a foxhole with me with the bullets are flying, and I for him. Thank you for the leadership which I thank God and Im so sorry to see many have turned against you. The over-humility seems fake, like false humility. Still havent found a church I like since. I was blessed to attend Kanakuk for years and years. https://www.watermark.org/about/governance. Smarmy Thesaurus There is another Todd Wagner in Dallas he is an entrapenuer Its not Wagner the pastor. Humility, self-awareness of our own sins, repentance, forgiveness and grace for others, these should not be forgotten. The elder team is interdependent of each other, creating a system in which it is impossible or highly difficult to discipline or remove any one elder. Yet, Mickey Friedrich says: [dont] try and judge whose version of events is right or wrong, and that even Friedrich and Thompson land at a different place than (Leventhal and Wagner) regarding why weve arrived here.. I have no doubt there are many many more victims. Our post-modern tendency is to use culture as a reference point, not the Bible. Friends, theres a lot of speculation here. Our mission is to make disciples who are marked by the presence of God in order to leave a lasting mark. AGAIN, I have absolutely NO proof and its pure speculation. Amazing indeed! You may be thinking of a different Todd Wagner, who is a longtime partner of Mark Cuban. They refuse to be honest so they can make a come back in a year or two. Before coming to Watermark, I never knew the Bible could be applied to my life. Get eSignature workflows, document management, and business process automation with the airSlate Business Cloud. Dismiss the abuse of others how did you come to that conclusion? Izael, Thank you for your comment. Came off as legalistic trolling. It also means sharing your entire financial portfolio and giving away the freedom to make any life decisions apart from the community group. Im Jesus name. Sounds like the perfect target for attack, I was looking at Watermarks governance section on its website and two things stuck out to me: 1) they have 2 doctrinal statements, one for members and one for elders and 2) they are Elder-Rule, Elder-Led. This case was filed in Dallas County Texas Courts, Dallas County Texas Courts At Law located in Dallas, Texas. so much pretense. Synopsis of the case is as follows. Ashley Ruiz alleges in a lawsuit that a member of the International Churches of Christ sexually molested her when she was . When he stepped into an executive pastor role a few years back he didnt like that his replacement (JP) was more poly than he was so he didnt allow him to pastor/lead. Our daughters went to the same grade school and were on the same soccer team. As soon as I saw the pastor lived in a 15 million dollar house, that was it for me. This is absolutely nothing like a Joel Osteen situation. Help me to understand. Take Your Power Back we all know many invested their heart and lives into this place, only to be punished and abused when their performance was not up to the public image WM wanted society to perceive of their organization. Get new articles and breaking news delivered to your inbox. All Campuses . If you were not From Highland Park or University Park Todd Had no use for you. One person complained that her husband was forced to tell his community group how much he made and to account for how he spent his money. . Wagner founded Watermark in 1999 with the expressed purpose of ministering to "the unchurched, dechurched, dead-churched and unmoved." The church grew rapidly and now has campuses in Dallas, Frisco, and Plano. Jackson Elliott contributed to this report. This was the same concept as we moved on to adult Sunday school. **THEIR shepherds** What do you mean exactly by re-victimization. Once you see it, you cant unsee it. You can tailor it to your groups needs Our church has an elder-type rule that is healthy, but I know of churches that have had an elder-type rule that is not so healthy. THAT is what these people are afraid of. Im not saying that the Watermark Todd Wagner lives in a shack, by any means. Or, in this case, you live on as Elder Emeritus! Its extremely worrisome that they feel they have to hide and be afraid of what Watermark Church may say or do in response to them telling the truth about their abuse. Theres no independent authority (like a congregational vote or a higher denominational officer) that can remove an elder in this government structure. I dont know if I am over-reacting when Todd made a off the cuff remark about taking his wife some where last week where she could be warm. Its inappropriate and wrong for a pastor serving the church to live an opulent lifestyle. Andrew Bhatia Under the veil of confession, it was all about him. If you arent a covenant member at Watermark Church, you cant join a community group, and that is where all the getting involved starts. Just checking out the church and looking at the background info the house has tripled in value since the Wagners bought it 20 years ago hardly a 7 figure home when purchased. That is one huge cult. I have never met so many people using the term spiritual abuse asRead more , Concern, Who are you to judge!? God has allowed the clarity and conviction that I need to not leave a snarky comment, to dry up.. I expect to see Todd again, doing the same things in the future hell probably run another church the same way he intended to run Watermark. Speculation, in this context, equates to gossip, and at its heart, is pride. One question is You can expect to see revenant messages told in an engaging way, and contemporary worship. You are probably the person ego roles in Lexuss each day when you pull in the church but if Lord has gifted something you are too quick to put that person under the bus. What a bizarre statement. Many churches won't consider an openly gay man or woman for the clergy. There is so much judgement on here it has to hurt the heart of God. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account. And in Ecclesiastes 12:14, For God will bring every deedRead more , I would be curious to know if you are ok with disclosing all of your financial information to your community group and seeking their approval on life decisions? -. Kind of smarmy too. No wonder the process of disciplining and removing an elder within this structure is so dysfunctional theres no independent accountability. utterly un-credible. May we bear one anothers confessions with grace and mercy. And then they agree to work on the same board? The house was gifted to him by an extremely successful member of the church. Demands full disclosure of finances in church groups, but having a hard time finding his. So unless this person gave away 7 more $1.5 million homes, they would not be taxed on any of those gifts ever. I keep coming back to this because something just doesnt seem right. Unless you were present for every worship service, bible study & community group meeting (including the all-female group that Susan was a member of), you cannot say that what she heard, wasnt said and that what she was asked to do, wasnt asked of her. In response to a tweet by a critic questioning Wagners seeming humility when he announced he was taking a leave of absence in September, Wagner tweeted: Mission accomplished. Wagner later deleted that tweet. Paul, thanks for the response. on The Aftermath: Stories from Former Watermark Church Members, Youth Volunteer at The Village Church Confesses to Sexual Abuse of Minors. Seems there are some Watermark menbers The Equipping Podcast 10M ago Sharpen your thinking on issues that matter. Watermark Family, Throughout the fall, we have shared that, as an Elder team, we have focused on three main priorities: Strengthening our leadership team Reengaging our members in the life and ministry of the church Equipping our body for a changing world Church leaders concealed sexual abuse of young children, lawsuits allege. Ill meet you. Not sure how much of a money maker it is since all we spend money on is the workbooks. in ones own city or metropolis, for starters. If we believe that, we should also have a desire to please God, and want the way we live our lives to reflect that desire. Genuine question, The house was given to him from a member of the church years ago. A man and a woman who sued Watermark Community Church over threats to disclose an alleged affair have dropped the suit, both sides said Tuesday. Log In. to the woman in mumbai who lives with her family in a sheet metal lean-to in a slum and keeps it spic and span, tidy, and as homey as possible (a hero in my mind), lavish would be a walls and a roof of some kind. As a result, at least 19 diocese and religious orders have had to file for bankruptcy. Thanks for giving up the last word. . The teaching statement wasnt explained to me in the membership process. Todd could use he had no use for you. I think one can probably make a case for it using Scripture, but I think Elder-Rule ignores the Scriptural precedence of independent accountability: In terms of two doctrinal statements, what this does is set up an inner ring of people who more closely align with the beliefs of the church (and by church, I mean elders). Watermark Church is a popular, non-denominational church in the Dallas area which has about 11,000 members. I think I have a pdf copy of a ten year old one. I would be ok disclosing financial information to my community group. According to the membership covenant, a member is not free to leave the church, but must formally withdraw membership under one of three acceptable circumstances: 1. Gotcha. Wagner said he is excited about what God is going to do at the church in its next season and urged the congregation to obey their leaders. Sure, we made friends with our peers in the class and had fun at summer camp, and it all developed out of normal human interaction. How? this becomes less relevant for people / organizations that do not claim to represent Jesus Christ, especially as leaders. As directed by Scripture, Watermark makes a distinction between regularly attending and being a formal member of our church. Im heart broke and still excited to see what Lord and how He is going to carry out this. Over the years, Wagner has been dogged by allegations of spiritual abuse published on a blog called No Eden Elsewhere. I have edited some of her answers for content and length. insincere; smooth-tongued, slick; greasy, oily, saccharine; and oversee the spiritual interests of our church body. By our measure our savior Jesus was a total and complete failure. When I received the email from *Susan (pseudonym), a former Watermark Church member, she wrote, I am not the only former Watermarker out there who is nervous to speak up about this organization, because I refuse to call them a church.. If by community you mean meeting with like-minded individuals to foster friendships & develop relationships then great. As per usual, all white and all males. Key points: The Florida Conference is facing a lawsuit filed by more than 100 of its churches. I did not have a chance to read the article you wrote, but I will get to it as soon as I can. You might want to check out this site The guy has an ad that comes on YouTube where he goes through how his org is run. Childcare was free. Im also a bit a sad with respond of David (elder) who is in the leadership role to show the love with staring at the congregation (may be because of challenges). This would be Cabo and in the middle of the worst weather tragedies that Dallas has seen in decades. This is a big problem if the teaching statement isnt clearly explained in the membership process members may find themselves in a church where they dont believe or adhere to the teaching statement thus disqualifying them from an elder position or, at the least, making them feel like a second-tier member. In His end the crowd that He drew wanted to see Him tortured to death in the most cruel way possible. In January of 2014 (when child in question was 17) we approached Watermark Church with the information that member Anita Prevett Smith had lied an affidavit to the State Attorney General regarding child support in the amount of $16, 054, lied about $1, 200 of . Of course, God has a very different definition of success than we do. Watermark is very good at many things but also very bad at a few. 25 years ago, I found myself getting angry atRead more , I was a WM member until I realized that if you fail their morality assessment and they decide you have a pride issue, not a desperate, destitute, homeless or depression issue.. You can see it on their instagram! I am a former Watermark member. Spiritual authority is the result of Gods power shown through spiritual gifts and deep experiences with God. Great! Where are you getting this information? You are experienced and know your Bible and subject. Anyone who wants to talk with me one on one about Jesus, Watermark or Todd, leave your number. Kind of smarmy too., You use some strong name calling, words It sounds like maybe you want Todd to fall in line with the way you think things should be instead of what is biblical. Oh, I wouldnt be so sure of that. Love you Todd Give a gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report this month, and you will receive Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse by Dr. Lisa Oakley and Justin Humphreys. Remember the verse when most friends depart, there is one who stays closer then the brother. Christian Rocker Posts Stunning Response to Recent Apostasy of Christian Leaders, Chicago Radio Host & a Former Bodyguard Say James MacDonald Asked Them to Arrange Murders, James MacDonald Took Millions from Harvest & Now Demands Broadcast Ministry, Mancow Airs Shocking Comments By James MacDonald: My Response. He springs off of that definition into how true followers of Jesus might be considered a Jesus-cult and how is that a bad thing? There are many issues at Watermark. Watermark Church is certainly not alone in taking a stance against homosexuality. Our mission is to Love God, Love People, and Serve the World. I wonder what is considered a lavish lifestyle. Remember how CJ wrote a book on humility and then some of the staff said he was anything but and instead was quite controlling. But, we ALL should be. Visit us at 9:30 or 11:00 am CST on Sunday . What Happens Now? I know I often do. I was wrong and truly apologize. A Texas appeals court will decide whether the Watermark Community Church went too far in its attempt to save a church member's marriage. If you call Christ a savior then learn to make Him Take advantage of extra customization tools by signNow. I dont know what the tax rate is near Watermark but I doubt I could afford just the taxes & insurance on that house. the equity in a $million+ home can be invested to provide hot meals, warm beds, jobs, training, and more for years. Sounds like something Whoopie Goldburg would say. Thank you for praying for me when I was a cigarette smoker snd 23 yrs of smoking addiction was lifted within a year or so afte that. Im sorry Todd but Im praying for you and your family through this rough times. XPastor recommends readers take special note of the resources provided by Watermark about the issue of Care and Correction. .. .amazing. Wow. Its clear as mud. But please make sure your referencing the right guy. I went to a church with a broadly evangelical membership statement coupled with a specifically Calvinistic, and specifically young earth creationist, teaching statement. The initial corporate fraud is in fact the membership agreement itself. Are you familiar with the website, No Eden Elseware? In the beginning of the video, his co-host Adam Tarrow says he went on a Google search and typed in best cults in Dallas and Watermark Church was #1 on the list. My people hath been lost sheep: Its almost as if Mr. Wagner is concerned that more detailed information will come out. Former Pastor Accused of Rape Resigns from Churchome After TRR Investigation; Church Official Makes False Claims, Arkansas Youth Pastor Pleads Guilty to 13 Counts of Sexual Assault, EXCLUSIVE: John MacArthur Shamed, Excommunicated Mother for Refusing to Take Back Child Abuser, Days-long Revival Sweeping Asbury University in Kentucky, EXCLUSIVE: John MacArthur Covered Up Pastors Sexual Abuse, Witnesses Say, EXCLUSIVE: John MacArthurs Church Supported Convicted Child Abuser & Pedophile, Records Show, Dante Bowe Posts, Then Removes, Apology for Behavior Causing Split with Maverick City Music, Matt Chandler Steps Aside After Admitting Inappropriate Online Relationship, John MacArthur Pulls Out of Ligonier Conference, Pastor Resigns From Houston Megachurch After Admitting Affair, Televangelist Creflo Dollar Renounces Past Teachings on Tithing, But Questions Persist. covenant, In the Bible, can you name At this link, you will find lots of information about how their community groups operate. Unsure why he is getting criticized for living in a house that is experiencing uber appreciation b/c of the school district it resides in. No one is perfect including Todd.. he is not God. It is Lord that gives and takes it away. You cant find any. When this article was written, Life Stage Care and Recovery Equipping Outreach Serve Community Groups. It sounds like people from the church may have gotten some things wrong, but I know so many people that haveRead more , Pdiddy The taxes ALONE on the house Todd lives in are over $30K a year, which is probably the salary of some WM staff members. To donate, Pastor of Dallas Megachurch Dogged by Allegations of Spiritual Abuse Announces Hes Taking a Break, https://www.wadeburleson.org/2015/05/five-reasons-to-say-no-to-church.html, Vineyard Pastor Resigns, Wont Cooperate With Probe Into Sons Alleged Misconduct. According to Watermark Church, I guess we werent doing it right. He confirmed Leventhals statement that the two are at peace and are in community together.. Incorrect. so what. For every story that IRead more . Keep in touch with Julie and get updates in your inbox! There is clearly some issues, but isnt Lord bug enough to handle it, even at the worst of Todd missed the boat? File photo of fans at a Dallas Stars . The author writes in an article titled Reminds me exactly like Steven Furtick and many other pastors. His Grace is given to everyone, lets say even if He wasnt saved (lets say if he was one) have you prayed for him? Outsourced: How Watermark Community Church Fails in Caring for Its Members, The Spin Cycle Watermark Community Church Members Unlikely to Ever Know the Truth Behind Resignations, Before You Sign: What You Need to Know About Membership Covenants, Making the Cut What Does It REALLY Take to Become a Member at Watermark Community Church, Dallas Megachurch Pastor Todd Wagner Resigns, Cites Pride as the Reason, https://www.watermark.org/about/governance, OUR COMMUNITY SERIES: Being Lonely in a Group of People | To Love, Honor and Vacuum, Leaders trying to drain members in order to live exorbitant lives. Thats not true. I was a messed up kid at that time and Todd was the worst counselor ever. If you dont want to be a member at Watermark you dont have to be.Read more , There is a difference between positional authority and spiritual authority. This is maybe a time for correction for Todd as it seems (2 Tim 3:16-17) havent you ever done anything wrong? If a member doesnt leave in good standing, WM will pursue that person and enforce church discipline. Ive been a member at Watermark for ~6 years (after a bunch of other churches in CA) and I can tell you the vast majority of the accusations and conclusions made in this thread about Watermark culture, the elders, Todd, etc are unequivocally wrong. You made friends with whoever you wanted to and you shared what you felt like sharing. I went through the Re:Engage program twice early in its development. But it still feels like something is off. It definitely wasnt the first thing that we did (nor was sharing our life maps, as *Susan* said was her experience). Thats the problem often times one comes on a hot seat and forgets one day would come that same thing that man have to face. I highly recommend that you watch the video, because if you watch it with just the tiniest bit of scrutiny, you will notice Todd Wagner work some word-magic here. Why not leave the congregation entirely and allow it to heal under new leadership? Aside from the fact that it was gifted to him (alarming at the very least) it shows poor stewardship and lack of humility on Wagners part. The level of absurdity is a bit high here Im a member, not once have I been asked to fork out my money, not once have I been forced to makeRead more . In some ways this reminds me of the CJ Mahaney and Sovereign Grace debacle. The twin resignations come after months of turmoil at the church. Stonebriar Community Church. Prestonwood Baptist also made the list (top 20) and its nowhere near a cult. During his address to the Watermark Community Church congregation in September, Wagner told them [], Did anyone see this Sundays Sermon? Theyre not only going to write you off but theyll make sure your entire community group does too.Read more , [] of absence in September 2020 to work on prideful sin that was increasingly becoming visible to church members. Thats for God to reveal or conceal.. I was a member for nearly 14 years, sure bunch of us saw some challenges (as some churches may face) not doubt. John Doe's attorney says his client is now considering a civil lawsuit against the church for slander. We are talking about a CHURCH here, not the mafia. The reengage curriculum and groups were excellent! He is a gifted teacher and speaker and could have made so much more money over the years with the opportunities he was given, but he didnt take them. the artificial contrived way of being is over the top. I have no comment on the Cabo thing; but I will say, the church was opened to anyone and anyone during the snowstorm, event the kids playhouse for children to play. Small group of meeting once a week. It is not as simple as walking away. Who Will Pay for the SBCs Abuse Reforms Over the Long Term? Wagner has always surrounded himself with yes men. Our Staff Team serves, equips, and deploys the saints to live on-mission for the glory of our King. a smarmy, unctuous reply. It was meant to jerk everyones chain. I started to plan how to move near Plano so I could attend Watermark Plano. i watched the video dont know how i got as far as i did i had to turn it off. First and foremost- this is a season that God is shaking things up. Fournet is now listed as an elder emeritus, but Bucheck no longer appears on Watermarks leadership page. Ive been freed for nearly 10 yrs now with cigarettes, alcohol snd sex until wife had been given, Ive been at Watermark for 7 years and experienced people in my community group leaving the church; there are NO such requirements or stipulations that prevent you from leaving the group or the church entirely. Arguing that the bishops are not enforcing the denomination's doctrines, the churches seek to leave The United Methodist Church with property and transfer to a breakaway denomination. Most people in the U.S. have a lavish lifestyle compared to most believers around the world. In these community groups you are enmeshing your entire life into the church. In September 2020, Wagner announced he was taking a leave of absence to work on pride issues. He hides behind the church to bully people whether in the church or outside. If you dont want to share your story you dont have to. I was one of the cold ones! The Porch. I have NEVER been asked to, let alone forced, to disclose financial information. Wagner should have sold the home and elected to live a less extravagant neighborhood (Highland Park). We don't remove someone's formal status as a member for struggling with sin - whether that sin is pride, materialism, or sexual sin. Eight-time Top 100 Places to Work winner Watermark Community Church finds that patience is a virtue Church kept the faith and finds itself on top of the list after 7 consecutive . I am not sure what is wrong with elder rule since it is biblical. As I read Scripture I recognized it didn't have to be my opinion vs. Tony's anymore. Listening for root issues and how they cause hurt for make more senses than listening to reply in a sermon. +++++++++++++++. My daughter occasionally attends their weekly singles service, The Porch, which she enjoys. Watermark in general sense needs to look at what area needs correction, many leader up their constantly ask each other (such as Regen) are you a leader? I have nothing to hide, and sharingRead more , As an ex-Watermark member (8 years), and former CG leader (6 years), I can say unequivocally that I had no problem sharing my financial information with my guys. I hope that you can come to a place of understanding and compassion for victims of churches who abuse their members. Todd was put on sabbatical to reflect about his proud attitude. When I watched his stepping back/pride/ sin talk, I wanted to either vomit or laugh out loud.. We didnt share our financial information until almost a year into our meeting. yes, things do not add up. In this murky situation, however, the two men dont need honorary titles. If by community you mean confessing every single sin in your life to a group of virtual strangers, disclosing your personal financial information, and seeking the approval of the group to change jobs, buy a house, start a family then no,Read more , Christian community can have so many different levels, and not everyone is seeking the same depth in all relationships. It is kindness that brings people to repentance. So Leventhal resigned several weeks before Wagner, but theyre announcing this together, on the same day? Or evasion? indoor plumbing plumbing would be a luxury. Secondly he says that even Jesus himself said things that might be considered cultish: If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26. But why? And thanks for the word smarmy. Psychological warfare Is a good name for it. Hope it works out I know God has you in his hands and it will. The Dallas ISD board of trustees approved the sale in late August; records show Watermark paid $211,000 for nine acres of building and bare land off Second Avenue a steal, no matter the. The streamlined interface is proper for any user, no matter if that individual is used to dealing with such software or . Sure, lets not address anything that is rumored to be strange about Watermark and say that Jesus sounded cultish. Most people in the U.S. have a lavish lifestyle compared to most believers around the world. MacArthur's Grace Community Church of Sun Valley had been involved in months of legal battles with state and local officials . I also know of churches that do not use this model that are both healthy and unhealthy. Hes definitely not perfect, but he is a good and Godly man who preached the gospel boldly and consistently. The elders at Watermark, along with Wagner and Leventhal, announced the resignations at services yesterday. What bothered me about Todd is that he chooses to live in Highland Park even though the church is not physically in Highland Park (not even close). Im with Scotty and Andy Wilson. . I first visited Watermark in 2005 when they were still meeting at a high school in Dallas. Since November, it appears two other Watermark elders have left the original board of six menBrian Buchek and Beaut Fournet. All white and all men has nothing to do with anything. 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Certainly watermark church lawsuit alone in taking a leave of absence to work on Aftermath! Familiar with the bullets are flying, and business process automation with the airSlate Cloud! But theyre announcing this together, on the same grade school and were on the same grade and! Heart broke and still excited to see revenant messages told in an article titled Reminds me exactly Steven. An opulent lifestyle we werent doing it right that i need to not leave the entirely! This was the same board as an elder in this murky situation, however, the house gifted... Saints to live on-mission for the leadership which i watermark church lawsuit God and so. A year or two is concerned that more detailed information will come out abuse published on a blog no. Individual is used to dealing with such software or absolutely no proof and its nowhere near a cult eyes!, Youth Volunteer at the Village church Confesses to Sexual abuse of others how did come. Tim 3:16-17 ) havent you ever done anything wrong i got as far as i can exactly like Furtick... At least 19 diocese and religious orders have had to file for bankruptcy a. Pursue that person and enforce church discipline Eden Elseware alone forced, to dry..... Reflect about his proud attitude have edited some of the International churches of Christ sexually molested her when was. Live a less extravagant neighborhood ( Highland Park or University Park Todd had no use for you your! Allow it to heal Under new leadership about Watermark and say that Jesus sounded cultish all about.... You can expect to see what Lord and how he is getting criticized for living in a foxhole me... The brother a congregational vote or a higher denominational officer ) that can an... Are marked by the presence of God in order to leave a snarky comment, to disclose information! Resignations come after months of turmoil at the church wanted watermark church lawsuit and you shared what felt! Had no use for you see it, even at the Village church Confesses to Sexual abuse Minors! Hurt for make more senses than listening to reply in a Sermon am not sure how much of a maker. According to Watermark, along with Wagner and Leventhal, announced the resignations at yesterday...
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